乔·罗根播客 #2560：大卫·格鲁施Joe Rogan Experience #2560 - David Grusch

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All right, bro. David, what's up?

Thanks for having me back on.

My pleasure.

Yeah.

Well, you're the one that's closest to the flame, so tell me what's going on.

Oh, I know, right? Living a nightmare is what I tell my friends. It's definitely been a tough several years or so. Last time we were on, I had just testified in front of Congress and the UAP Disclosure Act of '23 was possibly getting passed. It failed to get passed, and then, based on things I know about the Biden administration and things I heard from the White House, I decided to kind of lay low for a year. So in '24 I didn't do too much.

And then Representative Burlison had this crazy idea to hire me as a professional staff member for Congress, working for him. Turns out I guess I was like the first guy that ever testified in front of Congress as a whistleblower and then was subsequently hired by Congress. I was the first guy to ever do that, which is very interesting and very cool.

And I do thank Burlison for his leadership on that. So I did that for about a year and a half. Just finished up, actually. I was like, you know what? I'm staying longer than I thought. I'm going to wait until Labor Day, see where things are. I worked pretty hard over summer recess in August and decided to wind down some of my activities, because I accomplished a lot of my objectives — we can get into that, obviously — and then kind of move into, I'll call it, my next phase of operations, which includes a little break for me. It's been very tiring.

I've been going full throttle for the last couple of years and whatnot. And so we're really at, I think, a poignant moment in US history, with what Trump's done and the things you've seen in the media and whatnot. And there's a lot of other stuff happening behind the scenes, because a lot of my work has been private, behind the scenes, working for Congress, specifically Representative Burlison.

So, let me ask you the environment. So, are there some people in Congress that are interested in disclosure of this stuff and pursue you and want to find out information and want you to tell them what's going on, and then are there other people that are resisting this?

Yeah, I think there's a big bifurcation of the non-believers and then kind of the UAP caucus. Although you see more and more people kind of signing on to the cause — like I did a presser back in June in front of the Capitol with members, and we even had Brigadier General retired, Representative Scott Perry there, who was on the House Intelligence Committee, from my home state of PA. And it was good to see other members start showing that they support the cause.

But it has been challenging behind the scenes, and I had many SCIF classified meetings with the members, kind of going over the topological history of this topic and some of the deeper, darker kind of criminal stuff I bumped

into, and how I worked with DOJ to kind of highlight some of that stuff, and that's what

kind of criminal stuff.

Yeah. So, when I was looking into this — and I have to be very respectful of my participation in this, because it's an ongoing thing with DOJ — I was following the money, bumping into other activities. Very much like — actually, it's sort of related.

And if you saw in the news that David Rush, very similar name to me, it's kind of freaky, but he was arrested with $40 million of gold bars. He was a CIA officer, where he made a fake continuity of government special access program, and he went under the radar, basically doing his own thing and getting gold and Rolexes and stuff, and the FBI raided his house back in May. True story.

Yeah, the guy has a—

Is that gold bars?

He had $40 million of gold bars.

Where did he get the gold bars?

From the agency.

They have them laying around?

Yeah. I can't get into all the details of why the government—

Hold on. The government has gold bars.

Yeah. And this guy just snatched them.

Yeah. He made — I don't know all the details, but he made a fake continuity of government special access program that nobody was briefed into. He papered it, and nobody at the CIA questioned what he was doing. And he was like, "Well, I need $40 million in gold bars because of the special continuity of government activity."

Wait, wait, wait. So that's how they fund some things — in gold bars.

It's almost like in Afghanistan, when I was over there, I'd have guys with briefcases full of $100,000 in cash, 'cause you have to pay for things, right?

So—

but that kind of makes more sense to me than lugging around gold.

Yeah.

What does, like, $40 million in gold bars look like?

I saw the seizure photos. It's a lot. I mean, it's really—

Can I see what that looks like?

It's approximately 303 gold bars that each weigh approximately 1 kilogram apiece.

Yo, that's a lot of weight. Yeah, I was looking for a picture. There's only, like, AI photos of it

at least that I could find.

So, a kilogram is 2.2 lb.

Yeah. 2.2 or something.

That's crazy.

600.

He's got 600 lb of gold.

Yeah.

Where the hell do you put it? So, he just had it in his house.

He did have it at his house, and it was laying around.

A bunch of Rolexes and all that. And—

Oh, so he was just going crazy.

Yeah. Well, who knows what he was really going to use the gold for, but that's an open-ended thing.

And he was pretending that he was using it for some disclosure-type deal, or did it have anything to do with UAPs?

Not that I'm aware of, but that's the same ecosystem I bumped into. So his fabricated program was a continuity of government program. So that's like, you know, if something bad happens,

people are going to a hideout site, you know, a sanitized location,

right?

right?

When you say certain unspeakable—

Yeah.

You mean, like — what do you mean, like trafficking?

Yeah.

Like child trafficking? So the government was involved in child trafficking for money.

Officers of the government. That's true. Yeah. It's up— I briefed members in a classified setting on all the details. And I'm highlighting that because this is how serious this issue is: there's an ecosystem, and there's a lot of good people on these programs in terms of the UAP side. And I know a lot of them — they're friends of mine, they're patriotic people doing their duty.

But there is like a small little caste system of characters that are part of this larger ecosystem of no holds barred, we're going to do what we want, and we're going to do whatever kind of criminal activity to get washed money for our cutouts. So a good example, of course, would be Iran-Contra, right, which is very famous, '86, and the CIA was engaged in those kind of activities, and this has all been exposed all over — to fund the Contras, weapons purchases, procurement, etc. And a lot of that, you know, seemed to possibly be

drug trafficking. The government never confirmed that, but you look at Barry Seal and his statements in the '80s and '90s, and it's likely that that probably occurred.

Yeah. It was all through Freeway Ricky Ross.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah. Ricky's been on the podcast multiple times.

That's right. That's right.

Yeah. He was on — what is it, like two years ago, a year and a half ago? Last time he was on.

It's funny 'cause he's out now. He became an attorney while he was in jail — found out — learned to read first. Okay, he couldn't read. Became an attorney in jail, found out that they tried him — you know, that triple jeopardy, three strikes thing.

Yeah.

They tried him incorrectly. They used that incorrectly, because it's supposed to be three different times you were arrested, instead of, like, three crimes that were attached to one arrest. So he gets out of jail. Now he sells legal weed.

All right. All right.

Lovely guy. He's a great guy, but he had no idea that he was selling cocaine to fund the Contras versus the Sandinistas.

Interesting. He had no idea. He thought that he was just a slick character that just knew what he was doing, and he didn't realize that the CIA was literally allowing him to do it. Then we've also had Michael Ruppert on the podcast. You know who he is?

No.

Michael Ruppert was the LA narcotics officer that on — I believe it was on C-SPAN. He went on C-SPAN during a hearing and he exposed the entire organization selling drugs in South Central Los Angeles, because he was involved in it. He was involved in, like, busting people that were doing it, and then they told him he has to leave it alone because it was the CIA.

Yeah. Yeah. And so when I bumped into that stuff, I immediately worked with the Department of Justice.

That's one level, but, like, child trafficking is another level.

I know, man. It's really up— and there's a lot of details that are — I have a lot more questions than answers. And I worked with the DOJ, and from what I understand, I got a gold star in a brief to Kash Patel about it last year. I wasn't in the briefing, but I was told I got kudos. But it was very disturbing. And so, obviously, a lot of these programs are legal in the sense that — in terms of UAP stuff, there's classified executive orders back in the day that cover them, and

and they're upstanding citizens, and we could litigate — like, Congress wasn't necessarily brought into the fold enough from an oversight perspective, etc. But the core of the program does have a legal beginning. But when you don't have oversight, unfortunately, certain small pockets of people start doing what they shouldn't have. And unfortunately,

I got deeply ensnared in that. There was a very small group of people that pushed me over the edge, and I had to do what I got to do to protect myself. And I never wanted to be a whistleblower.

I was a deeply entrenched, 15-year intel officer, military officer in the Air Force. I was working some of the country's most sensitive issues. I started going to the White House to brief the National Security Council in my mid-20s on space issues, back during the Obama administration.

And in 2019, when I joined the UAP task force and I was tasked to investigate this, I was like, "Sure, I'll look into it." The special access program or black program community has a lot of dysfunction, and maybe some stuff wasn't reported correctly, and I didn't know really what I was going to find, but if there was a US program, I'd figure it out. I'd probably get cleared to it, and we'd be fine. We'd

have like a mafia meeting, and I know why it was protected the way it is and whatnot. But unfortunately, about a year and a half — about October 2020 — is when my life changed. And particular individuals, instead of coming to me — who knew me, by the way, personally; I know them personally — "Now, Dave, you're bumping into something, you know, I'm going to defensively brief you, this is what it is," or "Hey, I'm going to slide an NDA, sign this and I'll read you in."

And my colleagues and I joked about that, like, we're bumping into— eventually somebody's going to knock on my door in my office and be like, "Hey, I need to talk to you." And unfortunately, that never happens.

It's really tragic, because that would have been an easier way. But I immediately got administratively nuked in October 2020, and basically they went after everybody around me. My boss at the National Reconnaissance Office, as you know — Major Grusch, the Air Force

officer in the reserves, got walked out of NRO headquarters in Chantilly, Virginia under fabricated personal conduct things. And they went after my chief of staff who worked for me at NGA when I was a 15, and co-workers — people they thought were my enablers, right?

And I thought, okay, I could fight this. They're bringing up, like, my mental health stuff, which we've talked about before — Afghanistan PTSD. I'm like, I reported it. I was cleared of — you know, no problems. Kept my top secret clearance, and I still have my top secret clearance. But it got very, very scary in early 2022.

And I've avoided talking about this for a long time. And I've mentioned in my hearing in 2023 — you know, "I'm here in fear for my life," etc. Well, I'm not talking about the criminal stuff. I found stuff that's happened in my personal life and stuff. And so, back in early 2022, everything's fine. Started noticing some suspicious activity

near where I live, and I didn't think much of it. Thought it was kind of strange. And I don't want to quite go into all the details, but basically, later, one particular day, I was sent a message that they can touch me and my wife, and they know where we are, and they

And what do you think this was, particularly? Was this because of the child trafficking stuff? Was this because of some other illegal activity with no oversight?

You know, in private environments, I was asked what red line, what trip wire did I cross? To this day, I don't know specifically.

I suspect, based on them — it turns out they were monitoring my classified computer at work, my investigation notes that I would keep encrypted on there. I think they were very worried that I figured out a lot of things. And I still don't know for sure, though. And there's a lot of other things too. I guess I'm kind of jumping around, because in early 2021, certain people that were helping me and I was talking to started to experience Havana syndrome symptoms — you know, anomalous health incidents.

And I know a lot about that. That's another kind of ecosystem I was an expert in in the government. And of course, my first thing is like, huh?

Did you piss off the Russians or Chinese or some other kind of foreign intelligence service? Because you don't think domestic. And I'm like, what did you do in your career? Were you on covert action programs? Did you, like, bomb some adversary's building and they're pissed off at you and they hold a grudge?

And so I noted that — I wasn't going to equate that to the topic. But I was very nervous about that, because people I know were starting to experience those symptoms — specifically microwave directed energy, most likely, just based on certain tradecraft they were doing to detect it, which I won't get into the details of, and then their symptomology, so to speak. And so that was frightening. And in that 2021 time frame, I was sitting at home, I was getting investigated by three agencies, and I really didn't know what was going on. A lot of my colleagues were kind of continuing on that investigation on my behalf

And eventually, in late 2021, NGA hired me as a GS-15 off the street. Kind of came back into government full-time. I was hoping that agency would protect me against the CIA and the NRO and certain elements of the DoD that were going after me, because of these couple of antagonists that were trying to basically push me over the edge administratively.

But I crossed the Rubicon in early 2022, when I was sent a message, and it was this: the same day I was sent a message, other people got that message too. So it was coordinated, geographically. And of course, I reported that to federal law enforcement, counterintelligence element. And at the time I'm like, well, you know, there was one adversarial intelligence agency that had an interest in me several years ago, and I had a little incident that was actually kind of funny. So I wasn't sure if it was like the US government or even if it was related to my investigation. And then several

weeks later — and I get chills talking about this, 'cause it's kind of upsetting — I was in DC for a conference on UAP, actually, for my agency, NGA, at the time. And I got summoned to an off-books Senate Intel committee — we'll call it — meeting in their SCIF, right, their vault, where you can talk classified information. And certain individuals were there known to me — great credentials, people I've known for a while in my line of work — and so was, you know, a dozen, a dozen and a half senior staff for Marco Rubio, Mark Warner, you know, etc.

And in that meeting, we talked about the legacy program, the history, many hours. And I'm like a fly on the wall — like, this is really for Senate staff, I'm just kind of sitting in the back. And they turned to staff and they pointed at me and they're like, "Oh, by the way, you know, these couple of individuals" — and they named the individuals. I'm

like, "I know who they are." They wanted to kill you. And I know Luis Elizondo talked about it. But why?

I do not know that for sure. I think — well, so, be careful what I say. There are certain presidential findings that allow certain things to protect critical things in the government. And my assessment is I was getting so close to exposing it, because I was sort of preparing my inspector general's report to the IG, that I must have crossed some sort of Rubicon. I still would like to know, and I hope these people are brought to justice, and that's my wish and dream, and hopefully the Department of Justice does what's needed. But

there's an investigation ongoing right now.

Yes. On that. And that's all I'll say, defensively, not to interfere with that.

Okay. How much of this do you think has to do with actual UAP disclosure and how much of it has to do with a lack of oversight that allowed people to do illegal activities?

I think some problem children decided to abuse some standing options to protect critical infrastructure in the United States — which, for example, that would be like an Air Force flight line, an ICBM silo, other activities. And they decided I was some sort of threat.

And it's so disgusting, because, like I said, I was a field-grade officer in the Air Force. I was a GS-15, a colonel-equivalent civilian. And I'm sitting there in Senate chambers and I'm hearing this, and I won't get into all the details. I was in it a lot. I heard all the details on that, and I don't want to burn my sources. And I just remember how upset the Senate staff was, to the point where a particular staffer who's very senior went to his office and got some whiskey

and all of them started drinking in the SCIF, because everybody was afraid — like, are they serious? Or, like, they literally were thinking about killing Dave. And I found out that there was a kibosh to that. It's a longer story for someday, if I could ever discuss the whole history. And

so it was considered, but then it was kiboshed.

Yes. Thank God. And I know how it was stopped, and I owe some people a debt of gratitude, literally. And this was just a few weeks after I was sent a message, and even after the meeting, we were finding stuff and other people were finding stuff to let people know that they're being tracked. And I know this sounds like so crazy and all that, but

Well, so does someone having $40 million in gold hanging out their house and a bunch of Rolexes.

Never did I think, you know — I'm a very patriotic guy, I love serving America. It hurts me every day not having the uniform anymore.

And knowing that was the level that they thought about going to because of this interesting interpretation of certain standing options. And eventually, in this disclosure process, a lot of that will come out. I just have to be careful what I say now until the president figures out how to release some of this history, unfortunately. So,

Understood. Yeah. So, one of the things that we talked about before — so you were scheduled for another podcast a while back, but flights got cancelled; we moved it to today. But you were saying that it's actually fortuitous that it was rescheduled.

Yeah. A lot of things are happening. I see the administration getting really, really serious on this. And I think people don't appreciate the courage that Trump is showing right now, ordering the government to release everything we know about this topic. It'll be

courage? How so? Like, you think he's in danger from releasing this information?

Not necessarily, but it's the ontological shock, and the history coming out, and sort of the outrage. I mean, I think it'll be uniting — sort of like in post-9/11 America after the towers fell, right? You have the fear of dirty bombs and other terrorist attacks, but you also have this uniting panacea that kind of brings people together.

You think that is equivalent to what's happening right now?

It will be, and I think

it's going to happen.

So, I believe that before Trump's term ends, it's all going to come out.

What does that mean?

Everything I've testified about. You know, the fact that we've been studying this for a while. We've recovered material — a.k.a. intact, semi-intact craft. We've, you know, recovered this anomalous intelligence piloting the craft. And, you know, we are reverse engineering that. And obviously, there's other parts to that. It's a very complicated ecosystem.

A lot of people who are just "release it all, show us the Indiana Jones warehouse tour" don't appreciate the care that we're going to have to proceed with, because this is not a static ecosystem. This isn't just like archaeology where you're digging up stuff. You are dealing with, you know, third parties — both human, you know, adversarial countries, etc. They have their own program. Then you have, you know, this anomalous intelligence — our visitors, NHI, whatever you want to call them, ultraterrestrial — depending on which taxonomy in the tree that you want to ascribe some of this origin to.

And of course, you know, the national security related technology that has been derived — we've derived great stuff to defend America. I've had exposure on that and, you know, I'm very—

—aware of it through back engineering.

Yeah.

100%.

Yes. Well, some of it was inspiration. It wasn't a one-to-one like we unlocked the iPhone. It was like, "Huh, that's an interesting material. Look at that frequency selective surface property. You know what? We could use that for an aerospace application or whatever." And so a lot of it was garnered via inspiration, not one-to-one. Yeah, in some cases, I suppose we did, but that's been most of it.

So what's the holdup in terms of disclosure?

I can't necessarily read the president's mind. There's certainly a multilateral kind of diplomatic issue. I mean, so we're in this issue now where once we cross the Rubicon, then we affect allies and adversaries. You know, our adversaries have programs. What are they going to tell their citizenry? You have possible theological distress — Vatican, etc. And I'm, you know, I'm a Catholic and I certainly appreciate the Vatican's long study on this subject, and they just stayed quiet on what they know.

And so there's a lot of collateral effects if you're not careful with certain stuff. You can, you know, trigger a response. And there is great fear that — I don't necessarily believe in this, but there have been assessments in the past that, you know, revealing certain things may, you know, trigger a response from a third party.

Trigger a response from them, from these

Possibly entities, yes. And that is a—

that has been written up. Government think tanks wrote that up in reports to previous presidents.

So the theory is that we disclose, people are now aware of it all over the globe, and they decide to show themselves.

Yeah. I mean, I think there's a real fear of like a Ghostbusters moment, I'll say. And, oh boy. You know, and it's one of those things where I'm trying to walk the line and be as diplomatic as possible and also trying to prepare the populace at the same time, because clearly the government hasn't right now.

And I mean, Trump wants it out for sure. His team needs to be astute enough to know what to ask for — you know, massage the deep state and get that information, because we just saw Tim Burchett on Benny Johnson's podcast talk about how Steven Miller called him and was like, "Hey, I'm getting blocked — like, physically blocked from access to a lot of this stuff."

And, you know, that's very concerning. I would say Steven Miller is an alpha dog. He's a pitbull. And as a fellow alpha, I do appreciate his—

That's a silly thing to say. You know that, right?

What?

A fellow alpha.

Fellow alpha.

Opens yourself up to like tremendous amounts of ridicule.

Yeah, I know. I know. I mean, nobody's perfect and I know everybody has their faults, but I do appreciate

the fervency. He is attacking the issue behind the scenes and I just — I think he needs to be guided the right way and informed and, you know, kind of how to cut this deal. You know, like—

I met him very briefly at the UFC event at the White House and he told me that it's going to come out. I'm like, okay,

That's good. Well, there you go.

It was really quick.

Yeah.

He was like, "I'm just — I know you're interested in this. This is literally all we talked about."

The UFO thing is going to come out.

Yeah.

Like, okay, when's that coming out? Let's go.

Exactly. And Trump understands the subject pretty good and, you know, he's in the know and he understands some of the implications. So, like I said, he has a lot of courage, because this is likely going to change society in a big way. I'm not like a social anthropologist or a psychiatrist — like I can't necessarily predict in what specific ways it might reduce, you know, feudal nation-state peer competition and other things. But it is going to change.

And I think when people look back at this interview, it's going to be very haunting, because I think in short order — you know, before Trump leaves office — we're going to be in a new paradigm. And I'm normally a very pessimistic, cynical person. A lot of my friends know that. But I have great confidence that the president is doing the right thing. And I feel there's eventually going to — the people that are in charge of this are going to have to comply with the

president's order. And, uh, but there's a right way of doing this, I think. And I, like I said, I'm not some sycophant for the deep state. I'm a whistleblower, obviously. And, you know, I have philosophical differences about how this was kept and how they could possibly reveal stuff. But I am surprisingly confident, which is kind of weird for me to say, because I just see the tea leaves.

I know Miller's serious. There's other people in government serious. I mean, you even see Aaron Lukas, the PDDNI, the deputy director of national intelligence, you know, signing these big NDA waivers. It includes like any kind of waiver of not even telling the president — sorry, you have to tell us — kind of thing. And so you're seeing kind of the chessboard being set.

I know everybody's not happy with the tranches coming out with the low-hanging-fruit videos and recordings and stuff. And Representative Burlison and I, before I left his office,

recently got a 1952 recording that was still classified from Blue Book talking about the seriousness of this issue and all the crazy that they're seeing near nuclear sites and test ranges — which is interesting, because in that video that's been declassified, it mentions the very sites that in modern day have that same anomalous activity, to include stuff in the Southwest.

So I can't say where it is in the ecosystem — in the open source. But the executive branch hasn't acknowledged what specific test and training range they're seeing crazy orbs that they can't explain that accost helicopters and all that. So—

So is Trump experiencing resistance, in your opinion?

Yes. And I don't know all the details, but clearly Miller has. And a lot of it is, I think — and I can't read the mind of the deep state, but as a former deep stater, I would say that there's always been this kind of disdain for political appointees and members of Congress — like they don't have the reverence on this issue. They're going to mess it up. They're going to, you know, say something that they shouldn't have about a classified program. And that's why some classified programs are kept from Congress. They're called waived programs.

And the only presidents that were really, really involved were the ones like H.W. Bush, right? He was CIA director. He was fully briefed on this issue. A lot of that lore is true about H.W. Bush. Cheney, like I've talked about, fully in this. He was the mob boss for many years. He was kind of the head of this activity. And so I think there's some testing of the waters right now. It's kind of like a cat's paw dynamic — like, you know, we'll give you a little bit of this, a little bit of that, and they're seeing how the administration is going to potentially roll this out.

And obviously, if the White House wants my opinion, I'm available. But I do trust the president's team, hopefully will be able to handle this. Because if Trump doesn't enforce his order and see this through, I don't think any other president is going to be able. I mean, regardless of Democrat, left, right, whatever — like, if he follows through on this, he's going to be the GOAT. He's going to be a legend.

And, you know, all the other things people have problems with in his presidency — Iran, whatever — I think this will wipe those out. And this is really important for his legacy to initiate the process before the '28 election. Then there's like a hot handoff to the next administration. And, you know, if Trump's a political animal, he could easily line up a Republican team on the '28 ticket to basically, you know, be his continuity on this too. I think that'd be very smart. And

So this is going to take a long time to release. Is that how you're

projecting this?

That was always the plan back in the day. It's just because it's like an anesthetization and acclimatization process. It's like, you know, okay, we're gonna focus on this topic. Everybody's — this is going to get normalized. The temperature is going to cool and then we're going to bring in this shocking thing.

So, there's a schedule, like in terms of the psychological impact on the populace.

There was in the past — certain government think tanks wrote classified assessments for previous presidents on this. I don't know what the current plan is. I'm just — I'm currently literally a private citizen right now. But if they're going to do what they did in the past, it is—

and the slow rollout has its pluses and minuses. Like, I would say due to human factors, risks of adversarial countries getting ahead of us, other whistleblowers, whatever — you probably have to roll this out in at least like 12 months and whatnot. But we're in a precarious time if the administration doesn't start, because China and Russia could take advantage of this moment now, our weakness.

You know, China has their famous Belt and Road Initiative. China has admitted publicly that they have a UAP task force. Obviously, they have more than that behind the scenes. And they actually announced that when the DoD UAP task force was announced. You can find a news article from June 2020 in the South China Morning Post where they talk about they're analyzing these encounters.

They're using AI, etc.

So, do you feel that China has — or do you know if China has — these crashed vehicles as well?

There's parallel programs.

There's parallel programs. Now, one of the things that Diana Pasulka said, and Garry Nolan refers to in the same way as well, they refer to them as donations.

Yeah, that's what's really interesting — is I am aware of certain historical retrieval rules where they were like perfectly landed and it wasn't like a crash. And what is — what's going on there? I'm sure we've done a deep assessment. I never had access to that kind of information. I'm sure that we understand why that happened at some level, but that is true, that that's actually happened.

So the theory is that they want us to find these things so that we can examine the technology and perhaps work from it,

like engineer it, or like you were saying before, gain inspiration to try new—

Yeah. I mean, part of it's like throw the gorilla a banana, see if it can peel it. But also, the more skeptical intel officer in me is like, is this a Trojan horse? Do you want us to figure things out and then get addicted to a certain type of technology, and then that creates a control loop where they start handling us — whether we need raw resources to maintain a certain technology, or as in this intelligence, whatever this is, this nonhuman intelligence.

Right. So if it is a donation, do you feel like this donation is evenly distributed amongst world powers?

You know, I do not know the statistical distribution. That's very interesting. I never understood the total number of retrievals that other countries participated in.

Well, there's supposed to be quite a few in the United States.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's for sure. I don't know the answer to that actually. I'm sure there's a statistical analysis that'll come out in this process. You know,

Do you think there's any shared information between these governments? Do you think they communicate?

There is a gentleman's agreement. Uh, the top layer of it I can talk about, and I've talked about it previously, so it's not anything super new. If you look at the Accidents Measures Agreement of 1971 — which is the short title of this god-awfully long-titled treaty that was signed in September 1971 — you'll see Article Three of the treaty talks about UAP. And hey, if you see any unidentified objects around your nuclear or critical comms facilities, please call us, bro. And that was between the USSR and America.

And then in 2013, the classified annex of that treaty got declassified. You can find it online at George Washington University National Security Archives. But it gives the nuke flash — like the red line — like a code, to say it was like Adam-222, Adam-333, and that's all declassified. And he would send that to the Kremlin, like, "Hey, we see something weird around a place. It's not us, it's not a false flag." And vice versa. And so there was a

red-line comms for UAP activity between Russia and the US. And of course, Russia and US during the Cold War had a mutual notification treaty for space launch vehicle and ICBM launches, etc. Weirdly enough, we've never had that with China. Even to this day, we don't have a mutual — this is crazy. We don't have a mutual notification. If they're going to do like a submarine-launched ballistic missile test out of, you know, off their coast, they're not obligated by treaty to tell us. So sometimes they don't, with certain national security activities.

And so Northern Command, NORAD, Missile Warning Center, other places, NSA, DefMAC in Laurel, Maryland have to be on their A-game to make sure it was like a test, because the Chinese aren't obligated to tell us. And I have a crazy story in that regard. The Indians did something like that to us. I was on duty in the NRO operations center. And by the way, I got this cleared through security,

so, you know, NRO, don't shank me. Basically, there was an unexpected Indian missile test that hit one of their satellites in 2019. I think it was like March of 2019.

One of our satellites.

Oh no, not ours. One of their — weather. Yeah. Their own defunct weather satellite, and—

On purpose or an accident?

On purpose. And—

They shot down one of their own satellites

and they didn't tell us. I remember in my office, all these different phones, I'm calling the embassy and all this. I'm like, what the— you know. And because we were worried at the NRO about the debris, because we fly space, you know, spy satellites. That's the mission of the National Reconnaissance Office.

And I was the backup director of intelligence as a reservist at the operations center, where I was, you know, also handling the PDB for the director, and I, you know, led the director's briefing team. And, you know, I'm going to the orbital analysts on the watch floor with all the crazy screens, like, calculate the debris field, you know, let me know if we have to maneuver something and blah blah blah.

I'm like running up to the director's office in my uniform, you know, out of breath. I'm like, "Holy shit." You know. And it was kind of a big deal. And that's public — you know, you can Google that now. And I remember when that went down, it was pretty crazy. So—

That sounds completely insane.

Yeah.

So, are there other countries besides China, Russia, and US that supposedly have access to these vehicles?

Yeah.

Which other countries can you say?

That I don't want to get into, 'cause that gets into some sensitive stuff,

right? Um, supposedly this is like one of the best legends — that there's a craft that's so large they couldn't move it, so they had to make a building around it, and it's supposedly in Korea.

A legend?

I don't know.

Oh, yeah. You do know. How dare you? But you've heard that rumor, I'm sure, online.

I've heard that rumor online. Yeah.

Yeah. You don't know anything about that?

Yeah. We'll let the federal government.

Do you have any personal experience with any of this stuff?

You know, it's funny you asked that. As far as I can remember, I have no experience with the phenomenon. Like a lot of people in this — I guess ufology, or whatever you want to call it — they have that personal experience, like, "Oh yeah, when I was a kid, I saw an orb," or whatever. And

I have zero. I've seen a couple interesting things in the sky that, you know, could have been satellite passes. I've been an amateur astronomer, besides having a physics degree. I've been an amateur astronomer since I was in middle school, like 12, 13 years old. And I still have never seen anything in my personal life of a stupendous nature. I've never had any kind of spooky woo stuff happen.

Never been visited?

No. And that's why I was open to this. You know, I'm a child of the '80s — well, I grew up — I was born in the '80s, you know, most of my childhood was in the '90s. And I watched The X-Files and Star Trek: The Next Generation. And of course, I'm a precocious teen reading A Brief History of Time and, you know, Isaac Asimov and learning about the Drake equation. I'm like, there's probably life, but who knows.

And I'm open to it. And then, you know, when I got into the intelligence community, that's the first thing I looked up on the — I'm like, on the computer. I'm like, I go on to a certain database.

I'm like, type it in — Area 51, you know, UFOs. Like, everybody's done that who's gone through intel school, whether they admit it or not. And of course, I didn't see anything — or find anything.

The only thing I bumped into early in my career, in like 2009 — I remember reading the AAWSAP, the Defense Intelligence Reference Documents, the DIRDs. And at the time I had no idea what they were doing. And turns out it was obviously UAP related. But I was reading — why is the DIA looking into magnetohydrodynamic propulsion and cloaking and all this other stuff? And of course I find out later what it was.

But I had absolutely no personal experience, and even professionally, for most of my career. Now I found out behind the scenes later, like, "Oh, you remember that top secret program you were working on, Dave? You were actually looking for UAP and you didn't know it." I'm like, what? And of course, you know, I find out and I learn about, you know, how they hid all this infrastructure and they used a lot of conventional national security intelligence collection architecture to basically facilitate this crash retrieval program, which makes sense,

because they're not going to reinvent the wheel and, you know, totally have a separate infrastructure to use to like figure out if stuff crashed, activity, etc., right? And, you know, early — I would say about 10 years into my career — I remember some imagery analysts saying, "Hey Dave, you know, like, they told us to airbrush some stuff out of photos and stuff, and it was round." And I'm like, "Okay, dude, well, maybe that's something you're not cleared to know or whatever."

And I do remember that. And I had some suspicious recruitment earlier in my career too. I was on some really sensitive stuff that I ended up finding out was directly adjacent to the program, and I went through this whole like Smoking Man recruitment thing for a year, and, you know, was told I was going to get these kind of bizarre accesses, and I'm like, what are you talking about? And ultimately I was never recruited, and I kind of just filed that in the back of my brain for years. But like I've

said, you know, before — it wasn't until like spring of 2017. I was at the CIA briefing the deputy director's staff on a bunch of DoD classified programs, and the chief of a very sensitive office at the agency pulled me aside and was like, "Dave, what do you know about UFOs? Like, I hear there's like a program at the Pentagon and all that." And I'm like, "I don't know."

Like, I'm briefed on almost every DoD program at the time, by the way, and hundreds of programs in the intelligence community, because I was in a position of very high trust. And I, you know, I'm very patriotic and I'm very humbled that I was in a position like that in my 30s. And I didn't think anything of it until this subject got more popularized, people went public, you know, Tom DeLonge, TTSA and all that.

And then I was professionally interested but not really working on it in 2018. And then early in '19 is when I got brought on as the NRO rep to the then Navy task force,

which became the DoD's, you know, UAP task force. That's kind of my origin story. And so I was — I've always been curious, but I never saw evidence and I never had any personal experience with the phenomenon, which kind of colors my judgment on this, I guess. So—

So I'm sure you're aware of Hal Puthoff when he was tasked by the Bush administration, along with a bunch of other thinkers, to try to come up with pros and cons for disclosure.

Yeah, I knew some other people in that meeting and I verified that meeting took place. And even AARO admitted in their volume one report — which was horrible. Well, that's a long story. Painful. Uh, that it took place, but it was just a hypothetical scenario at a federally funded research and development center in Northern Virginia.

What year was this?

2004. It was like November of 2004. And it's like, but why was it hypothetical if it's not real? Nobody explains that. And obviously the story is, you know, Steve Hadley, who was the national security adviser, sponsored it. You know, I believe Hadley denies it, but, you know, who knows if Steve would, you know, tell the truth on that, just because of the sensitivity. So—

And so for people that don't know what happened, supposedly they brought in a bunch of different thought leaders and they gave them a pro and a con side, like what would be negatively affected by disclosure, what would be positively affected by disclosure, and attached a numerical value to each group.

Correct. They had, like, a computer system there that tabulated everything, from what I know talking to other attendees.

And virtually every one of them had more negative than positive, and so the decision was made to not disclose.

Well, yeah. And the main decision, if I remember correctly, was the federal contracts fraud. Well, that could be debated in the Supreme Court. But they realized a lot of — and so this is another issue of disclosure, besides the ontological shock and people not handling it and, like,

misappropriation of funds.

Yeah. And misappropriation of funds and all that. It's — oh, so this set of contractors got sole-source contracts and exclusive access to this for internal research and development, where they figure out something and then sell it back to the government, etc., for all these decades. What about my mid-level small business and my contractor and blah, blah, blah.

And so they were afraid that you would see legal challenges going to the Supreme Court, in violation of what they call the DFARS, right? The Defense Federal Acquisition Regulations,

Right?

And the government would be liable for who knows how many billions of dollars' worth of monies that they spent on this, to these contractor partners that got in back in the day. And like, well, we're not exposing any more people, we're locking it down, in what they call a J&A, justification and approval for a sole-source contract.

The reason: national security. Like, we can't expose any more people to this. And of course that also causes a brain drain and groupthink and actually hurts the defense industrial base. But that was the main reason. It wasn't, oh, upcoming millennials that are turning 18 can't handle it.

It was like, yeah, we're kind of culpable and kind of in a contractual relationship. And that's going to be something that the Trump administration is going to have to deal with. It's like, well, how do I reorient the defense industrial base? I mean, this could trigger a golden era of innovation in America. More people get

to play. You overtly can take the basic information that's not sensitive and put it into academia, right?

So you have undergraduate, graduate, post-doc programs, and you actually create this more educated workforce to actually benefit national security. But — and China doesn't have this issue. They're pulling people from, pick a university in China, Nanjing, whatever university, and they're sucking them into these programs. But in America, we don't have that kind of permissive totalitarian environment. So,

Well, in China, they probably don't have the issue with misappropriation of funds and lying to Congress.

No — CCP, baby. You know, do whatever you want.

They do whatever they want. So they don't have to worry about liability. So this is one of the things that came up in that film, Age of Disclosure, is that you're going to have to make some sort of an amnesty program.

Yeah. And I am for that, as long as it's like use immunity for specific testimony, or—

as long as it doesn't cover, like, this other thing you're talking about.

Like, my— and of course I know who's watching, people clearly that are from this ecosystem. I would, you know, expect that, like, everybody's been basically good Americans.

There's a small cast of characters that have done unspeakable things. I mean, how they wanted to kill me. This is, like, it's disturbing. And you wonder why I had to become a whistleblower. I didn't want to do this, but like, I was pushed over the edge to do that, you know? I digress.

But like, besides, like, blue-collar, really fucked-up criminal shit, which, you know, once again, there is a judicial justice process in America, you know, we're not going to do street justice here. We will, you know, take care of that professionally.

Like I took care of the other criminal stuff I found out professionally. I'm like, look, I'm, you know — and when I was doing that, I mean, I was meeting people in body armor, armed, with colleagues of mine that were, you know, rolling heavy, too. And like, it was a very serious part of my investigation.

But yeah, I believe in amnesty, but I think we need to do it like a truth and reconciliation commission, which was in post-apartheid South Africa in the '90s, where you had, you know, some white farmer coming in, it's like, yeah, I murdered a bunch of black people or whatever, you know, and it's like, okay, thank you for telling us that. You're good. You know, don't do it again and move on.

I mean, I'm distilling it down, but that's essentially what the TRC in South Africa was. And I think something like that would be very additive and good, because, I mean, I have friends that run the program. They're great guys. They're bros, you know, and gals, and they, you know, signed paperwork, you know, it was like, if you divulge this, it's under penalty of treason, you go to Leavenworth or, you know, capital punishment.

And yeah.

Let's break down what you know—

Yeah.

—and what you can say.

Yeah. What are these things, and what are they capable of?

So, there's, like, physical and non-physical — call it UAP — and intelligence we're likely dealing with. So, for example, the orbs: could that be a sentient plasmoid? Possibly.

Sentient plasmoid. So plasma that has consciousness.

Yeah. In some way. And that could be, like, you're seeing the other side of some sort of wormhole, and it's some other intelligence shooting this — I'll call it, like, a plasmoidic probe into, you know, our existence. I mean, there's — this is, of course, a theoretical framework, and once again, I don't have a PhD in—

but it's theoretical that there is a life form that is a plasma-based life form,

and there's already papers on the open internet about this, a couple years ago. What's the title of the paper they wrote about this possibility — so this is an academic assessment of a possibility of the orbs. Now, could the orbs actually be physical craft, but they have a sheath of plasma around it? Interestingly enough, AAWSAP did a defense intelligence reference document on magnetohydrodynamic propulsion, which, if you remember the movie The Hunt for Red October,

that's the Caterpillar Drive on the Russian submarine, you know, back in the day. And of course with MHD you can also do it — you have to use a conductive fluid, either seawater that has salt in it —

or you could do it in the air, but you have to create a plasma and you steer the plasma with what's called the Lorentz force. It's basically — you have a perpendicular magnetic field, a large amount of electricity, and you can basically, through the Lorentz force, which is like ionic propulsion sort of, control it in the atmosphere as well, and you can, you know, read papers on that and other stuff like that.

And so one of the byproducts of an air-breathing MHD system is plasma around it. So depending on the size of the orb, it is conceivable that there's a physical craft behind it as well, just as an artifact of the propulsion system. Once again, that's a theory. I'm sure the program knows and that will be communicated at a later date, but, like, you know, that's — yeah.

So this theory about sentient plasma—

Yeah.

is it the idea that we have a very narrow-minded view of what life can be,

and that life as it evolved in other places, in other parts of the universe,

went non-corporeal at some point, like, the meat suit sucks, we're going to—

Right.

be an energetic—

like, this is an ultimate expression of both technology and at least enhanced evolution, that eventually consciousness is isolated, or consciousness may be ubiquitous and exists in everything anyway. And that, yeah.

Yeah, certainly. And I'm not the expert in, I would say, the consciousness theory. I like the Penrose-Hameroff Orch OR theory, which is the microtubules, the room-temperature — so microtubules are in neurons of the brain, and you have this room-temperature quantum system that can collapse the wave function without an observer, and that's what Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff — and I've talked to Hameroff, crazy smart guy, he's an anesthesiologist by training, and Penrose obviously is a very famous mathematician and physics legend — and that's how they view consciousness.

I'm not saying that's the exact model. I happen to prefer it because it's very trippy and very interesting and does explain spooky action and, like, telepathy.

Because, oh, well, if it's just a quantum system, then I'm like quantumly entangled. Oh, that makes sense now, like why remote viewing and other stuff works, right.

Yeah.

Okay. So you have some sort of plasma-based intelligence.

Yeah.

And then what else?

Yeah.

I'm not an expert in exactly why that is. And yeah, we've recovered several different types, and it's once again a taxonomy where it's almost like — like, not all white people look the same, right? Same idea, where you might have, like, a species, per se, but then there's sort of, like, subsets, right.

Now, is there a theory, or is there information, based on where these things are from, and that different ones are from different places?

There is, but I never got access to that. And even if the information was — once again, how would you, like, confirm that, as a skeptical former human intelligence officer? You have some sort of NHI communicating to you, oh, I'm from star system X, Y, and Z, right?

Cool. Is that denial and deception, you know, activities? Are you misdirecting? You're from somewhere else. So,

even if they said — they told us, how would you verify that? I mean, there's certainly, obviously, ways.

And but some of it seems — once again, extraterrestrial is part of the pie here, right? There's ultraterrestrial and other things. And it does seem like a lot of it's been here for a while, and also seems so similar to us that I have questions.

And once again, this isn't rhetorical. I don't know the answer. It's like, well, is this bio-engineered? Is this a break from our tree? Is this some sort of other technology, like chameleon-type technology, if you will. I don't know the answer to that. So I think that's—

What are the prevailing theories amongst the people that are working on this, though.

Yeah. So—

Like, do they have answers, or do they just have theories?

I am not certain of that, because I do not have that level of knowledge. And as the government rolls that out, I'm happy to, you know, parse that with the American people in public and kind of explain my opinion on things as gaps and information for myself is filled in, because I'm not omnipotent.

I didn't have full access, and I only know what I know. And that's why I've treated this with such reverence, because even me going public, I'm like, I don't know what this is going to trigger, besides my own personal safety, which clearly I was under duress and I had to even resign my Air Force commission.

Didn't even fully retire, and I'm trying to get that fixed. I, you know, filed something with the Air Force board a year ago so I can actually retire and have my benefits, because, you know, I missed my promotion to lieutenant colonel and other stuff. But I digress.

But certainly there is such similarity that there was a concern, and from a genomic perspective, and there was work on that to compare genomes. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to that and what they found out.

Work to compare genomes from biological samples.

Uh, yeah. Dead cadavers. Yeah.

So that's real.

Oh, 100%. Yeah.

So there are—

Oh yeah, I know that for sure.

How do you know that for sure?

I got to see the audiovisual on that side.

You got to see what?

Yeah. So, I got to be a little vague, only because I want to protect the sources, because it may indicate a specific activity or operation, and these people were very patriotic, and they were just dead cadavers in, you know, on the ground, because it was a retrieval activity. Yeah.

You saw them physically, or you saw video of them?

Video.

Yeah. So you saw a dead cadaver that was at a crash.

Yes.

So they filmed the crash and they filmed these cadavers.

Yeah.

How old is this footage?

Uh, I don't want to say.

Okay.

It's contemporary, but I—

It's contemporary.

Yeah. But I don't want to reveal a particular operation, because it narrows it down.

But it's clear. It's not like you're looking at 1950s black and white. It's clear. And, you know, when I get that kind of information, you know, I'm like, okay, tell me what it is, what happened, and then I put it out for collection, so to speak, and then I confirm it independently, because I was very allergic to any kind of deception, right?

Like, with the advent of AI, Sora AI, you can create a very realistic — and so I was very anal-retentive when I was given documents, audiovisual, etc.

And I sat on that stuff for, like, years until I felt comfortable with that not being some sort of limited hangout or deception activity. So yeah.

What did it look like?

Human-looking.

How human?

Very—

like, looked like a human, or looked similar to a human.

Very, very beautiful. And—

Beautiful.

It — and I said—

What color was the skin?

Uh, bluish white, and super close. No, no, no, no, no. It's like—

like someone who drowned,

like a pale sort of albino. And—

And it's interesting, and I said this in another interview that's not out yet, but — and, God willing, this is my last interview for a while, hopefully, in a pre-disclosure environment, you know.

And General McCasland, when he was talking to Tom DeLonge — and this is public record. Tom's talked about it on, I think, your show and other interviews, where he always told Tom, think of the Greek gods. And — oh, true — you look it up, and now I kind of understand what he meant.

But General McCasland, who disappeared within a week of Trump giving the declassification order on UAP in February 2026, there's a lot of reasons why McCasland's disappearance—

—disappeared. He walked out of his residence in Albuquerque and vanished.

Oh, that's right. That guy. Yeah.

Yeah. And nobody knows. And I, you know, I have a relationship, obviously, with Justice, and nobody knows what happened to the guy.

And he, like, he left home so he couldn't be tracked. I think his phone was left, but, you know, one of his firearms was missing. It's like, very weird. So—

Right. He left without his phone.

Yeah.

Yeah. That was one of the weird parts about it.

Yeah. And once again, he was going on a trip with, like, 18 of his friends. He went to REI the day before to get, like, a medical kit and other supplies. And I mean, obviously his wife's discussion about him, the body cam footage, is public, and, you know, he had some mental health issues, nothing major, and some aging-type issues,

but she didn't think, you know, he was going to, like, kill himself or whatever. So, I mean, you never know. And I've had friends, unfortunately, pass away through suicide in the military, but it's very bizarre. And it's — when within a week of Trump that coming out and, um—

Just say, I know a lot about General McCasland.

Well, there's quite a few scientists that were connected to UFO/UAP disclosure or UAP potential back-engineering projects or mysterious projects

possibly. I think—

Do you think there was more, like—

To be fair, it was a little overblown, and I don't think there was a ton of correlation. Like, one was a female that worked at Air Force Research Lab when McCasland was a commander. I think that was one of—well, I mean, there's a lot of people that work at Air Force Research Lab. That doesn't mean it's necessarily related to the topic. I—the only one—

Didn't she have—didn't that one particular lady, if it's the same person, didn't she have some sort of research that was on material science?

That sounds correct. I'm not totally conversant on all the people that disappeared. The only one besides McCasland that was very concerning to me was my Air Force friend that died mysteriously about two years ago.

And it's an open investigation, so I won't get into all the gory detail of my assessments. I mean, it's binary: it's either a very tragic thing—self-harm or otherwise—or it was something else. And my friend—his name's Matthew Sullivan, call sign Quake in the Air Force—him and I were on active duty together. He was on the program and he was one of my sources. And I—once again, I don't name people, but he unfortunately has passed, so I want to make that clear.

This video—do you think this will be a part of disclosure, that we'll get to see this video of these dead bodies?

Probably so. There's a lot of audiovisual stuff. The problem with the current climate—like, you're going to have to wheel out the physical evidence, too, 'cause people—the trust in government is so low right now. Like, you could show a video, but people are going to be like, "Oh, well, that's just the US government messing with us." And you're going to have to—

Curate and wheel out—literally, like, put it in the Udvar-Hazy Center, the Smithsonian, and then give the biological samples to Eric Weinstein, who I know wants it. And—

Why would you give it to him?

Well, he says he has people that test it.

I have people that test it, too.

Yeah, but give it to me.

I'm just saying that—

It's all ridiculous. And give it to who? There should be a way that human beings, other than the government, can look at this stuff.

Well, there needs to be an independent process.

Yeah.

Right now, is this stuff—

So, this is contemporary, this dead body thing.

And so, this is a fairly recent crash.

Mhm.

And did these things have all the characteristics of a human being? Did they have ears? And—

As far as I could recall. And it wasn't at all a close-up. Oh, yeah.

They had hair.

What color was the hair?

It was like grayish and all that. The problem is—given the nature of the video, it wasn't super close-up. It was like—

Of course not.

During the operation. So, it's not like—

During the operation of retrieval.

Yeah. Okay. And then they—they had these things. So what is your understanding of what happens to these bodies?

Oh, they're kept for analysis. And—

How do they keep them?

They freeze them.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I don't know the exact process. I'm not a biologist, but they do put it in some sort of preservation status. So—

Huh.

Yeah.

So was that the most compelling thing you saw?

Yeah.

And once again, I want the public to see all this stuff. Don't take my word for it—plead with the president to make sure this comes out. He's really courageous to do so, and I just hope this all comes out.

When you say contemporary, you mean the last 20 years, more recent?

I don't even want to characterize it, but it's contemporary.

And when you say Greek gods, do these creatures actually look like something special, like not just like a regular person? You said beautiful.

Yeah. It's just very oddly—and it's been a while, but I'm just trying to visualize in my mind. It was just very, very beautiful. It was just—

Were they wearing an outfit?

It looked like some kind of form-fitting thing, but I didn't get a good look at it.

Spandex?

I don't know. I didn't get a good look at it, honestly.

You didn't?

No. I mean, it was like a pan. So—

Okay. So they didn't even focus on the bodies. They're just like, "Oh, there's a body over there." You know, people had a job to do, right?

Did you worry that—that's a scam, that you're being shown something that's horseshit?

Well, like I said, I was very careful with that and confirmed it through other sources and methods to make sure it wasn't some sort of limited hangout from some government element trying to sway me one way or the other. And—

So you independently verified that there was an event.

Yeah, I did.

Okay. And then there's footage of this event. And in this footage of this event, how many bodies were there?

I think three or four is what I saw. I don't know what the total was.

Did they have gender?

It looked amorphous to me, but once again, it was a pan.

Really?

It looked amorphous to me, but once again, it was a pan.

Really?

Yeah.

Long hair, short hair?

Long.

All of them?

Yeah.

Hm.

Yeah.

The Greek gods thing is very weird.

It's weird. And—

It's a weird comparison. Like, you stop and think about that.

Yeah.

It's a weird comparison. Like, you stop and think about that.

so beautiful?

It's funny you say that, 'cause, like, I think about, like, breakaway human. I mean, once again, I'm just—I'm just—

or maybe even an original civilization that existed before.

Yeah. More people are leaning in that direction when they start looking at some of the stuff that's underneath the pyramids and some of the weird structures that they're finding all over the Earth. Like, how are these things—we had a whole podcast yesterday about it. It's like, how are these things made? Who made these things? Like, what—

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously I follow Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson, just, you know, casually. And—

And I do have—not fears, but, you know, I have questions about some sort of breakaway human civilization, and that explains some of this, or it's bio-engineered. Because for them to develop naturally, say off-planet—say it's extraterrestrial—and it looks almost like a dead ringer for us? Like, that doesn't make any sense to me.

Well, does it make sense? If we're engineered, then it makes sense. So—

That is certainly a possibility. You know, I have questions about that, too.

This is what Bob Lazar believes. I had a long conversation with him about that. He thinks that human beings are a product of some sort of genetic manipulation.

And I think, hypothetically, if that ended up being verified in some way, shape, or form, you know, how does that change humanity? What does it mean to be human? And I think there's a lot of deep human sovereignty and other questions on that, if that ends up being the case.

Well, it gets weird, because we're willing to believe that an omnipotent god created us out of nothing. That's cool. But the idea that we were visited by what's essentially almost godlike in their powers and abilities—some creature from somewhere else, or some being, some super hyper-intelligent being from somewhere else—

and they manipulated us. That bothers us.

I know. And I—weird. My biggest regret was not getting access to, like, the biological assessment reports and stuff like that. I was getting enough spears thrown my way, and I was, you know, in literal danger, so I unfortunately wasn't able to get access to that stuff.

Have you talked to anybody who did get access to it?

Not on that side of the program, in terms of the scientists analyzing the bodies. No. I just—I know people that are good friends of mine that were on retrievals and saw them as well in person. And once again, I'm like comparing: did—did it look like this? Did it look like this? Did this happen? Was it this type of craft?

Do they vary in terms of what they saw?

Yes. And some of my colleagues saw them alive as well.

Yeah.

What did they see alive? Like the Greek god-looking ones?

No. It's the pop culture. I can't believe I want to talk about this. The pop culture—

reptilian-looking—

reptilian—

the grays, yes, as well. Those are real. Once again, the Ariel School phenomenon in 1994—very well documented mass sighting.

What does it—

is that Zimbabwe?

Yeah, near a uranium mine.

And they saw small gray beings coming out of a lenticular disc craft. Once again, this is why it's almost not that shocking. It's like, yeah, they look like that.

No—

Well, that story has been going on for a long time, and that's iconic. The problem with iconic imagery is that now you have it in your head what to expect. And that was like from the movie Contact. Remember the movie Contact? Like, it showed itself.

Great movie. Great movie. I know my boy Amomar—I got him hooked on that movie. He watches it like every quarter.

It's a phenomenal movie.

But there's a scene in the movie where the alien shows itself as Jodie Foster's dad. I know, because it's something that she can handle.

And that's—it's funny you say that. That's what—if they're bio-engineered, then that makes sense, because of that ease of contact, ease of communication. Also less ontologically shocking. It's familiar.

Right.

And I think, as this rolls out, I think the American people need to think about, like, okay, well, if—you know—I'm presented with this reality, how would I react? You know, I just think of them personally as—it's like my West Virginia cousins, you know? It's like a different part of the family. But I'm cool with them. And—

That's a—

I'll chill with them, you know, whatever. And hey, I'm a nerd. Like, do you know how bad I want to just, like, hang out with them?

Oh yeah, me too.

Like, not that I have any personal bias for President Trump to do this, but, like, just like any American, I want to know more.

Of course. I want to meet them. I want to communicate.

Well, I think it's just wrong for some people to have access to this information, because I think this is different than any other kind of secret information.

I think its weight and significance and impact on the human race in general — I mean, I demand it, I want it, we should know. There shouldn't be a group of unelected bureaucrats and defense contractors that have access to this stuff and the general public doesn't. So they have a completely different map of the world than we do.

I know, and I just think about the unfortunate lies, and how society has progressed over the last several decades, and where we could have been if this was handled back in the '50s, '60s and '70s.

Right. And once again, it shouldn't even be me doing this. Like, I saw a little bit of crazy, I learned some stuff. I met with some of the most senior people in government to confirm all this, you know, at the highest, highest, highest level.

And it's me — like, I'm just a dude. I was a major in the Air Force and, you know, a mid-level senior civilian in the IC. But unfortunately I got stuck with this, and it wouldn't have happened unless this small crew, you know, honestly pushed me over the edge, and, you know, I was in unbelievable duress and I ended up having to go public. So—

So tell me more about these reptilians that your friend encountered. They were alive.

Yeah.

So they were alive post-crash.

Yes.

Why do these things keep crashing?

So some of it is NHI versus NHI wars.

Yeah.

They war in the skies.

Yeah.

You think — like, would they get along? They're so advanced.

But we have records of them at war with each other.

Is that in the Mahabharata or the Bhagavad Gita? There's talk about sky wars in the ancient Hindu texts.

Oh yeah, in the Vedic texts, the blue people. And I know that's why you asked about blue. I don't recall them being that blue, but, you know, right?

I got a short little look, unlike—

Yeah, when they're alive, they're darker.

Well, that is true. There's a post-mortem change in them, like — in people. That's what happens with people.

That is true, because, you know, as they were struggling and then died, obviously their affect changed. And so—

This friend that encountered — first of all, we'll go to the Greek god people first.

Yeah.

This friend that encountered — first of all, we'll go to the Greek god people first.

Boomerang, crescent moon, usually. Not all the time. It's kind of like — once again, some people like to drive the Porsche 911. That tends to be — not all the time, but that's what they like to roll up in.

They talk about them as the tall whites.

Yeah.

You hear that? Were they tall? Were they large?

They look tall to me. I didn't have—

Hard to tell, because you don't—

I didn't have a ground reference, really. I would say at least human size. They could be—

very similar to human size.

Yeah, they could be. My big ass is 6'6", but like—

they looked big,

similar to humans,

I think. So, and there might be taller, once again. I'm sure there's other stuff I don't know about. I'm sure there's other variants of them too that look more towards, like, the classic—

what is it in ufology? Like Nordic, or, you know, tall whites—

and those are probably even taller. If some of those experiences are true, which, once again, as long as that source is credible, that might be a thing. So I think we need to be prepared to kind of—

that being a thing. I don't know.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Now, the reptilian craft — what did that thing look like?

That one is tic-tac looking.

Uh-oh.

Yeah.

I was hoping they were the cool ones.

Yeah.

I was hoping they were the cool ones.

Yeah. And once again, like, we're — and of course it's not always a tic-tac. Once again, kind of like what I said, but that tends to be them.

From what I understand — obviously, hopefully I'm not wrong, but I'm, you know, pretty good sourcing on that.

When you see, like, malevolent behavior, right, it's like — well, that's a humanistic lens. You're seeing, like, an animal lash out in captivity kind of thing. Or they're in duress, they're having an emotional experience, etc. And it's like, you know, are they actually scary, or is it just because of the situations we've been in with them? And so what kind of bias and all that. So—

of course.

Yeah. And so these reptilians — what did they look like?

Now, I've never seen them in person.

Your friend described them as—

It's like, very — almost like 7 foot tall plus, sort of gorilla-looking skin.

Gorilla-looking, scaly skin though. Reptile gorillas.

But there's multiple types. There's ones that are more humanoid-looking.

So there's multiple types of reptilians?

Yeah. And I'm not an expert on that one. That's — once again, I never saw it in person to get the exact, you know—

See if there's an artist rendition.

Yeah. Yeah.

Chris, you are.

Yeah. And once again, it sounds so schizo, like, even for me—

Gorilla with scales.

Ex-deep-state intel officer. I'm like, I cannot believe I'm talking about this on Joe Rogan.

Scaly gorilla.

I know. And I mean, it sounds schizo. And it's coming from somebody like me, you know, who, you know, is a credible person and has been in government. It's like—

I'm going to be that guy. I'm going to be that guy. And then down the road people will review Joe Rogan and be like, we thought he was crazy, but—

What do you know? You know, it's true. Well, of course, if there are things from somewhere else, you're going to sound crazy describing any of—

Because it's so outside my experience, because I never had some kind of woo thing growing up or some sort of interaction with the phenomenon.

So it feels so outside my personal comfort level and experience, because I'm relying on the personal experience of others, you know, audio-visual stuff, and it still feels like I'm watching a movie. Like, it's like, is that — is it real? I mean, I know it is, but like, I have a cognitive dissonance a little bit, you know? So—

And how were you able to watch this video? Did they have to put you into a secret room?

Yeah. I won't get into the exact way it went down, but, uh — we'll just say it was kind of sketchy, but to keep everybody safe. So—

And so there apparently is NHI versus NHI warfare.

We've documented that.

Documented it?

In collection — what we perceive as warfare. So, unless it's some sort of conflict—

Yeah, it looks like conflict, it smells like conflict. Is it some other kind of weird — I don't know. And there's maybe an assessment on that. But—

And when this reptilian craft crashed, the assumption was that it was some sort of conflict, because I would imagine—

Correct.

—that they're the ones you'd have to worry about.

Because there was dead — dead grays there, too.

Oh, yeah.

So the grays and the reptilians were duking it out.

Yeah. I guess — you know, I know the people who were there and—

This sounds insane, Dave. It sounds crazy.

And once again, I don't want to get into too many specifics, because this is a very unique—

There's a couple unique retrievals out there that — to protect the innocents and people that have risked their lives, because a lot of the people that—

came to me with that kind of information. I mean, they were physically threatened, like me and all that. And so, like, me going public was taking it for the team, because I was able to create this umbrella of tacit protection, you know, in case somebody got [hurt].

And unfortunately, you know, my friend Matt — who knows what happened to him — but, you know, tragically he died, you know, mysteriously. So—

Now, these reptilians — what was their craft like?

Oh, like I said, the tic-tac, tic-tac stuff.

And was their craft crashed into the ground, like broken up?

Yeah.

Okay.

It was like wedged into—

Like, had it been hit with something?

I don't remember exactly what happened in that regard, but it did crash. So— and I don't want to misspeak on what exactly happened. So—

And how many times has this happened, if you had a guess?

I don't know the total number of, like, adversarial conflict crashes, but I mean, it seems to be at least a dozen or two. I don't know.

So, at least a dozen or two adversarial crashes. And then there's the high-altitude nuclear tests—

Right? You're aware of those, right?

Mhm.

Okay. So there's been a lot of speculation that during those high-altitude nuclear tests, that craft that didn't know it was coming got rocked. Do you know anything about that?

That's an area I'll let the government handle, because it gets into vulnerabilities and what the US has figured out. So that's just a sensitive area, but that's something I'm sure will come out in this process.

So you can't talk about that. Is that what you're saying? Because it gets into US capabilities and what we've figured out in terms of—

Well, this is all, like, from the 50s, right?

Yeah. But we still have nukes and we still have those kinds of weapons, you know.

They don't go away.

So, you're aware of those— it was, what was it, Jamie? Was it a telescope that they were taking photographs of the stars with? Do you know what I'm talking about? The all-the-little-dots-popped-up thing? Yeah, that's like two or three weeks ago,

right? We talked about that a couple weeks ago. It was an observatory, and the observatory has these old plates of images that they took of the sky.

Oh, is this Beatriz's work, the VASCO?

Yes.

Yeah, I read it. Very interesting. And

it's hard to make an exact conclusion as to whether it's UAP, but it's really great original scholarship and I applaud her for doing that. But there appeared to be moving reflective things that were outside of our atmosphere that they were taking images of. They were not static. They were not

pre-Sputnik too. That was the important thing.

Pre-Sputnik is very important, because there were no satellites at the time. These were images they took of the sky that showed things that were reflective and, allegedly, seemed to be metallic. And if I remember her paper correctly, with her co-authors, there were also cluster concentrations over sensitive nuclear facilities and nuclear testing, and a chronological, temporal correlation as well.

So the data shows unidentified lights in archival astronomy images were 68% more likely to be imaged 24 hours after a nuclear weapons test.

Like I was saying, yeah, right.

So this is chronologically — like, we have these nuclear weapons tests, including these high-altitude detonations like Operation Starfish Prime.

Yeah.

We detonate these things, and then all of a sudden these craft start showing up, like, "Hey, what are these crazy monkeys up to?"

It does seem like there was a heightened amount of activity once we started testing nuclear weapons.

Oh yeah.

Obviously this phenomenon is old. It's interacted with man and antiquity. You know, Jacques Vallée's scholarship on that — [unclear].

Yeah, that's why the names of our rooms at the Comedy Mothership are Fat Man and Little Boy.

Oh, nice.

Yeah, because that's what ushered it in. Because it's the Comedy Mothership — it's UFO-based.

Yeah, if you go to the Air Force Museum, they have the Enola Gay there, I think. Is that right?

It's one of the planes.

Oh, wow.

My alma mater is going to crucify me for getting that Air Force history wrong at the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio. But

Wow.

It's pretty cool. They have a mockup of the Little Boy and Fat Man bombs, so you can see how big they were. You're like, "Holy [shit], that was big."

One of the things that Lazar said is that one of the objects they were working with was very old. And he said that they had — it was told to him that it was retrieved from an archaeological dig.

I don't know about his specific story and his exposure, but the archaeological thing — that is a thing. Yeah.

Are you aware of the labyrinth at Hawara in Egypt?

No. What is that?

Okay, so

is that the one where there's a metallic object that they— but the what's-his-face won't let people go in it, from the Egyptian?

Well, it's complicated. It's a little more complicated than "won't let them," but there's definitely resistance to it.

So, these labyrinths, this incredible compound underground, was documented by Herodotus, and he said it was greater than Giza. He said it was much more spectacular construction.